19. Values, Visibility & Difficult Conversations

In this episode of Wildly Intentional, Flick and Verity have an honest and thoughtful conversation about values, visibility and the responsibility that can come with having a platform online.

Following recent discussions around trans rights and the EHRC ruling, they explore the impact these conversations can have on people, workplaces and the wider business community. Flick shares why she chose to publicly post about her values on social media, why visibility and allyship matter to her, and what happened when that post attracted an online troll.

Together, they talk about navigating disagreement online, responding from a place of intention rather than reaction, and why leading with your values can help attract the right people into your business and community.

This episode also explores the importance of curiosity, education and nuance when discussing topics we may not fully understand — and why fear-based content and sensationalised statistics can often do more harm than good.

As always, this isn’t about having all the answers. It’s about having open, respectful conversations and encouraging business owners to think intentionally about how they show up online.

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Don't forget to join us in our Facebook Group to continue the conversation and let us know your thoughts on this episode and if you have ever felt the same as we do here.

Transcript

0:00

Oh welcome. Good morning. You okay? Yeah, I'm not well. I'm saying yeah, because it's a it's a default answer, isn't it? I'm fine. It's okay. Well I'm better than other people, which is why I'm like, yes, I'm okay. And I'm I'm I know I will be okay. Yeah, let's let's get into it in a minute. Hang on a minute. I just need to apologise because I might struggle with my words a bit because Flick literally woke me up with a message this morning saying, We okay for 9.30? And I'm on annual leave and I had it in my diary for 9.30 tomorrow. So I was like, Yep, yep, give me a minute. So I have rocked it up. I literally haven't even cleaned my teeth yet or had a coffee. Um, I can't get my words out properly. So today's gonna be quite interesting because we're talking about something really emotive. I might get quite passionate about it, and I really need to get the juices flowing in my mouth before I can do that. But today's one of the days I'm so glad there's no camera. I mean, you you've started with an apology, which is just like hilarious to me. Oh god, I am as well. She's not awake, folks. She's not awake, she's already said that. Um, but also I did I'm gonna caveat that with the fact that I offered to move it to tomorrow because I've got anything. I'm gonna lie in tomorrow as well. I'm on annual leave. Why did I put this for 9 30? That's crazy. I've got no kids, I'm away. We could have had lunchtime tomorrow, but no, you were like, let's do 9 30 on Thursday. Yeah, come on. And this is, I mean, the topic that we're gonna talk about, yes, it's gonna be emotive. Um, I think for for us both. I mean, there's there's been stuff happening to both of us that is um really, really recent. Mine was literally in the last 24 hours. Yeah, um, and yeah, I mean, you know, we're we're gonna share our views and our values on online because I mean that's I'm a big advocate for that anyway. So, what are we talking about today, Verity? We need to well come up with a title for this as well. We are gonna have to come up with a title. Um, I don't really know where this is gonna go. This is gonna bring our passion out massively, but we're gonna talk about the update in the code of conduct for the equality act that has caused so much heartache for so many people. It's caused heartache for the trans community, it's caused heartache for those who with gender fluid identities, and for somebody who teaches about the Equality Act, I'm really finding it hard to digest. I I really am. I was finding the High Court ruling, the Supreme Court ruling, hard to digest, but the fact that we've actually gone forward with that just there is it's like I just I might end up crying on this. I find it really difficult to comprehend. But your situation is worse. I mean, I work with trans people, and obviously, equality is kind of my thing, so I'm really passionate about it. But you've had first hand experience of how nasty this world is right now, yeah. So um, yeah, so on Tuesday, so I did the same, you know, over the bank holiday weekend. I was seeing all the posts about the I'm gonna get the letters wrong because it's early for me and I've only just started drinking coffee. So we've we're back to having coffee on the podcast as well. Hopefully it just doesn't collapse. Um, but yes, um, so I was seeing all the posts about the is it the EHRC? Yeah, is that the letters in the right order? EHRC, yeah, code of conduct, yeah. And I was seeing all of this and I was just seeing all of you know the trans community. I've got a lot of friends in the trans community who I were just you know posting their absolute heartache, and I just sat there and I it sat with me um all of Monday night, and I was just getting angrier and angrier and angrier that it this is happening to other people, like and and it's being done in my name, uh, you know, as a as a straight sorry, as a white woman, a cisgendered white woman. Um it's being done in in the name of my safety, and I don't agree with it. Um, and so I put out a post on Tuesday morning. Um, I I found a you know a trans-Ally group page and I found a quote from Penelope Cruz, um, which was really quite fitting. And I'm now gonna pull it up on my phone because I'm gonna not I'm gonna want to misquote it, but it the quote on the photo said, When I see people struggling, fighting for rights that should never be questionable, that creates a very, very strong reaction in me. And that was exactly where I was on Tuesday morning having seen all of this. And I thought I'm gonna share that that photo with my view on the fact that you know what, trans women are women, in my you know, my opinion. Trans men are men, in my opinion. You know, I've never felt threatened by my trans women friends. I don't want them to think that they are in any way threatening me when they offer me a hug or you know, use our toilet. Go, yeah, come to the toilet with me so we can fix our makeup and we can, you know, reapply lipstick. I don't I don't care. Like they're not threatening me. Um, and I just wanted to put that post out and I put it out on my business page and put it out on my LinkedIn page. Um, and you know, I I shared the the link to some of my trans friends just because I really wanted to make sure that they saw it and they knew that I was with them. Um I can hear my voices going a bit, so I might end up crying on this as well because you know it does it, it evokes a really strong reaction in me. And they were they were mostly you know very grateful for the fact that I had shared this. Um, I got a lot of people sort of starting to see it and were reacting to it and you know in a positive way. And of course, then a troll sees it, and they created first of all, so it would have been somebody who I potentially know um has seen that post, has then um created a brand new Facebook page, uh, a Facebook account. Um, and they have posted some really malicious comments underneath some of my friends' comments on my post. Um, and then they took it one step further and they sent me messages saying that I'm what's wrong with the world kind of thing for the fact that I don't understand, you know. Clearly, I I'm so blinded and blinkered um to all the hateful, hurtful things that trans women and um have done. And it is always you know, they claim that trans women have done these things. Um trans women are really the targets on this. We'll talk about that as we go on. Um, and you know, just some really, really awful, awful things. They've they've said some language that I really just the one particular word. Um, as a scout leader, I'm I'm sure our listeners can probably figure out what word it is that I really hate and I feel quite venomous towards that word because when you're a scout leader who doesn't have kids, you you have questions of that nature, um, and which is just awful in itself. But yeah, they've spat that one at me. Um they've you know they spat that word at um some of my trans women friends who were on my post, and it it just it just got very nasty. And I I went back with what I thought was quite an eloquent, eloquent response to them. Um and you know, sort of you know, very sarcastically at the end, sort of like, you know, saying, have a nice day. Like please remove yourself, go away. Your vitriol and your hatred is not welcome on my page. Um go, you know, let it poison you, let let your hatred poison you, kind of, you know. I I think Foxtrot Oscar was in there too, which is what made me giggle. It's the kindly Foxtrot Oscar, I think was the bit that really made me giggle as I was typing it, going, like, you know, kindly, you know, if this is your opinion and you're entitled to your opinion. Um, is it? That's not an opinion. Calling trans people what they called them is not an opinion that is literally just spouting hate. It's not you can't honestly think that every trans person on the planet is that. You can't. It just either you need a brain transplant or you are just spouting hate. You don't actually think that. You can't who could think that? Who could think that every single person in the trans community is that? It's just ridiculous. Well, there was somebody else in history who thought the fact that you know people who are different were the well, there is that, yes. Yeah, cause of all the uh hatred and awful things that were happening to their country, and that was you know, second 1933, if you haven't quite figured out from my hints as to who we're talking about there. Um, you know, so there's uh I mean there's one person that's obviously in that kind of line, but also psychotic and delusional, as I can be called. Yeah, it's kind of dealt with a brain transplant at the time. I don't know. There were there were other people behind him that were potentially worse that agreed with him. But anyway, anyway, always other people behind who are potentially worse. Yeah. Um yeah, we I had a great debate with that in my history class of actually if you had a time machine, would you stop um you know his parents from procreating that night and and have stopped him or or would you not? Because actually the the things that we learnt about ourselves, about society, and about genetics, actually, in in the wake of what he did, um have trurthered us far more than we ever thought we could have gone um at that time. But anyway, that's a that's a whole lot of I also think sometimes better the devil, you know, and this is it's not going off track because it's relevant to this topic, but I always say I hope nobody does do anything to Trump because the person standing behind Trump is the real danger. Yeah, he's just the front man, idiot, obviously. I don't care if I say that, but the one standing behind him, that's the dangerous one. Yeah, that's the one that reminds me an awful lot of the head of the handmaid's tale just saying, I still need to watch that. Like, I've not seen it. No, oh my word. Well, you don't need to watch it because it's literally playing out. It's playing out. Yeah, I know that's but that's why I want to watch it. This is part of it. It's a bit like 1984. Like, I love reading that book because I'm like, this this was written as a warning, not as a fing guidebook. Sorry, I've just oh I've just put I've just sworn and then apologised. And then apologize. Don't worry about it. Um I think we can get away with it today. But that's relevant because I think, and actually, somebody did comment on your post about that, not specifically the handmaid's tale, but specifically about the fear around where this is going. And I do, I feel like the handmaid's tale is kind of playing out in front of us, particularly in America, but it is slowly coming here, particularly with some of the leaders that we've got, you know, out there at the minute. The amount of hatred in the world is just, I feel really emotional about it. I feel like I I really do feel like we could end up in tears on this. This is not a cheery podcast today, but this is a subject that needs to be talked about. And ironically, you know, a few weeks ago we actually recorded one very similar to this, and we decided not to go out with it because maybe it was a little bit too controversial. And then today we sat there and thought, we can't sit silent, we can't. When we've got these views, when we've got these friends and colleagues, you can't sit silent. And I'm gonna be really honest, okay? So I'm gonna be what happened to you was disgusting. The language they used was just unbelievable. I just cannot believe. I find it, I do genuinely find it really difficult to understand somebody's mindset who could say things like that. So people they want to I literally messaged so one of the the my trans friends and they messaged her as soon as that message uh that comment to her came back. And I was like, look, I've I've seen the horrible and despicable comment made underneath yours on my page. It's not my place to apologize for somebody else's hateful words, but I'd like to offer an apology anyway. You know I didn't create the post to bring you any negativity. Um, I hope you see my eloquent, if I do say so myself, reply to them and know that I have no idea, you know, I have no affiliation with them, I have no alignment with that view. Um, and they've come back and said, Yeah, it's not the worst, and unfortunately, they face that word every day. I'm like, every day you're facing being called these horrible, horrible names. And this, you know, she's trying to run a business. Hi, Katie Leaves. If you are listening, because you know, I'm gonna sit and say shout out to her because she's wonderful and she's beautiful, and um, you know, she she's faced she has faced trolls far worse than I have, um, because of her her trans. Well, I mean, you could imagine, can't you? Because if you're facing trolls just by uh speaking up and being an ally, imagine what they're facing who are actually going through it. It's just I think, you know, I was gonna say that I'll admit, you know, a few years back, not I've always been an ally for trans rights. That is never kind of I've never seen an issue with that. I've always thought that people should be able to live how they feel best, how they're most comfortable, how they what makes them happy. I've always thought that the gender fluid stuff I I was really confused with when it first happened. And I will admit that I was like, I don't understand why we got so many genders, and I really didn't get it. And then I educated myself. Now there's a lesson, people go and do some research and actually educate yourself. Um, speak to people, find out, ask them, um, have conversations, be curious instead of judgmental. And I did at first struggle with it because, you know, I'm of a I mean, I'm the generation that was around when gay rights was there, you know, when everybody was fighting for gay rights. I was around then. Um, you know, you're just a baby, so you know you've got a tail end. But um, you know, I was there and I was like, you know, even I remember being a child thinking, why do people have to fight just to be who they they want to be, who they feel natural being? Why do people have to fight for that right? A bit like what Penelope Cruz says. Why are you fighting for things that you shouldn't have to fight for in the first place? Even as a child, I never understood it. So I was there for that. I was there before LGBQT came out, and then it was extended. Obviously, I was there before any of that. And I just didn't understand why gay people had to fight for the right to be gay and to be accepted into humanity as being part of our community, the world's community, the human rights community. I never understood it. But then the gender thing got to me because I was like, because I'd been through that, I think, because I am an older generation and I'd kind of been through that fight, I didn't then understand at the time why all of these genders were coming out. And of course, at the same time, we've got platforms that coming out like TikTok that give very different views on things. And I want to talk about TikTok in a second because that TikTok has done a huge amount of damage for the trans community, I think. Um, it's also done a lot of good, so we will balance it. But you know, you had all of these kind of things coming at you, and I don't understand it. And then I decided, so I don't understand it. So let's go and get get educated, let's find out about it, let's try and understand it. And what came out of that was that, okay, I get it, I get it. You know, just a little bit of education, you know, just a bit of education, it's not difficult. Just go and do your research. And actually, if that person who told you went and did their research, they would find out that they are factually incorrect in so many ways. But the problem you've got, right, and this is where I come from with TikTok, and I've come off TikTok, so I'm dipping back in. You know, I said last time that I'm off social media, I have dipped back into Facebook now and again. I still will not have it on my home screen. I have to physically download it every time I go in. But I go in because I've had a look at our group, you know, and I think I need to be more present in there and things. And I just kind of I've started deleted all the groups that I was part of, all the like community groups that were really toxic. But TikTok, I have not gone back on yet. And the reason for that, I I couldn't go back on it right now because I can imagine the rubbish that's been spouted. The problem you've got, excuse me, and I need people to listen very carefully to this. If you've got a view where you are in any way against the trans community, I need you to listen to this. You have transgender people, or you have people who say they're transgender on social media, on TikTok, who go out to aggravate the general public. And I'm gonna name one, right? So there's Lily, I think the name is Lily. Lily Tino, I think. Now, they for me, I do not believe, I will categorically say I do not believe they are transgender. I don't. I believe they are a man dressing up as a woman to go out to aggravate people to create content on social media. I do not think they are a true trans woman. Then you've got that they have made a really bad rep. So they are aggravating people deliberately, and they are saying they say things like chest feeding. They come out with those kind of terms, which is going to irritate uh cis women. It's going to. Because you know, I'm um I breastfed, I didn't chest feed, I breastfed. But then you listen to um Alexis Blake. Now, this is a completely different kind of side of the coin. Now, Alexis Blake is a true trans woman. She has, and I'm not saying everybody has to go through the magic medical transition, that doesn't matter, but she's been through the full medical transition and she's documented a journey. And her views are so unbelievably incredible. And she goes out against people like Lily Tino, who are so damaging to the trans community, and she says, I don't want to be you, I just want to seat at your table. That that's all I'm trying to do. So the these opinions that they're trying to take over, women, and they're trying to say that we're all the same. A true trans woman will never say I am a woman. They will say I'm a trans woman. There is a difference. They will never try to say I have um, I'm not going to go into it, but they will not say things that are completely untrue. They are very true to who they are, and they're very true to women. They're very protective over women and women's rights. They are very, very protective over that. And they are not asking to be us, they are asking for a seat at our table. And I do not understand where the fear comes from. And I've got friends who I know will vehemently object to what I'm saying right now. And let's talk about the toilet safety. Let me tell you now, I am never threatened by a trans woman and coming into my toilet ever. I will stand there and do my makeup with them all day long. I will hold their hands and go into the cubicle with them. There is not a single part of me that is threatened by them and their sexuality, not a part of me. If a trans man walked into my toilet who presented fully as a man, I would be fearful because that is a person who is presenting as a man in the women's toilets. And that is what you are asking people to do, ladies. Those who disagree, you are saying that trans men have to come and use our toilets. Now, the other side of this coin, and I'm going to get really aggressive about this, is nobody is considering the safety of those transgender people. Nobody is considering that when you are asking a transgender woman to use their biological toilet, that person who presents and lives their life as a woman has to go into the men's toilets. Do you not consider how dangerous that is for them? This whole situation is like saying you are a second-class citizen, your safety doesn't matter over mine. I can pick. We might as well have the black toilets and the white toilets back again, right? We might as well have the white the trans toilets and the cisgendered toilets. But I'm like, I thought the other thing is the fact that one of my friends um also commented it now. She is a cisgendered uh woman, and she is very tall, she's not very cavacious, and she has been questioned as to whether or not she is a trans woman before because she doesn't fit the and in quote, you know, traditional feminine figure. And she's been quite she's a she's a cis-gendered woman. This is where we're gonna go. We're gonna start questioning what women should look like. I've seen that happen, I have seen that happen in toilets. I have seen somebody question a cis woman on whether they are a cis woman. They didn't use the term cis because they vehemently objected to that. So they were sort of a real woman, wouldn't they? Yeah, a real woman. Um, because they were quite masculine in their appearance, they were a cis woman, and that's the the cis woman thing that used to bug me as well because it was like, well, I'm just a woman. I didn't understand it. I was like, I'm just a woman. And then I researched and got educated on that again. You know, this there's a theme here, people. You know, just go and educate yourself a little bit. Approach it from curiosity. That's the thing. If you don't understand something rather than approaching it from hate, approach it with curiosity. Now, I you know, I've put up another post today about the fact that I had somebody who questioned me about why I was sharing my views on trans rights on my business pages, on my LinkedIn. Um, and they they I know them very well. They were asking for a place of curiosity, they were not attacking me, and that's the thing that we need to do is we need to approach these things from curiosity. Now I am happy to hold my hands up and say the fact that I got something wrong in the beginning, but I then approached it from curiosity. I educated myself and now I understand. That is a you we're not expecting everybody to understand it right from the beginning. We are ex all we ask is that you approach from curiosity. Yeah, absolutely. That's a bit of a bit of judgment, just complete flat line judgment. And I want to bring into this as well because this isn't just about the trans community, the epitate and the equality act, and there is a lot of confusion here, but so let's let's just fact check. So I come from a workplace perspective when it comes to uh the Supreme Court ruling and what's now come into the code of conduct, the EH that you know the code of conduct. Um the Equality Act is guidance, it's it's a very gray. Grey area because it is guidance. Um, and what actually really matters is what happens in court. So case law dictates how people are seen, how they're judged, how you know. Um, and part of what I do is teach about the nine protected characteristics in the Equality Act. And a few months ago, I would say um we would look at the nine protective characteristics and we'd open the class and have a conversation about anything that might be missing, anything that should be changed or updated. And the one that comes up every time is sex because sex is has always been defined legally in the UK as male and female. And then it generates a conversation around, well, what about somebody who's gender fluid or non-binary? Where do they fit? And I've always, up until a few months ago, said, well, they fit under gender reassignment because they're characteristics of gender reassignment, even though they're not planning on going through it. And then a few months ago, a very, very big organization, very well-known organization, um, were taken to court by an employee because they wouldn't recognize them as non-binary. And at the very beginning of the court case, the judge said, Are you planning on reassigning? And they said, No, I'm non-binary. I'm I'm not trans, I'm non-binary. It's my identification. So they went through the court case and then the judge threw it out at the end and said, You cannot be protected under gender reassignment because you've got no intention of reassigning. And that threw it all into kind of disarray. Nobody knew where they sat then. So I was really interested when this update came out about where non-binary and gender fluid um genders identifications fit into the protected characteristics now, and they don't. No, they don't fit. It's done, they're gone, they don't matter anymore. So either you identify as male or female, or you are not protected. You're protected under discrimination, right? So let's get that clear. You cannot discriminate against somebody because of their pronouns. So let me be very clear about that. You cannot bully, harass, or discriminate against somebody because of their sexuality, their sexual orientation, their gender pronouns. There is no discrimination, that won't be tolerated. And this is where it's going wrong because people are not understanding. So the whole Supreme Court ruling that came in, and what's now been updated in the Equality Act under the code of conduct is that toilets are obviously a big issue because that's that's the biggest issue that came out of this high court ruling, the Supreme Court ruling that you know trans women could no longer use women's toilets. Oh god, you know, there are bigger issues in the world than that. But anyway, um, so that's the biggest kind of thing that people have picked up on. So let me be clear to employers out there. You can categorically now, under the law, say that trans women cannot use women's toilets and trans men cannot use men's toilets. You can say legally you should use your your biological sex toilets. However, you also, and this is the bit that's being missed, so let's get legal on it, you also cannot discriminate against that person or put them in a situation that makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, which means you cannot force a trans woman to go and use the male toilets. You are not allowed to do that. So if you are not going to allow them to go into the women's toilets or the men's toilets, you need to provide a safe space for them so they can go somewhere else. If you cannot do that, you can't do this. You will be breaking the law. We're back to the that whole argument that was a few years ago of like, what is so wrong with offering gender-neutral toilets? Well, exactly. I don't I don't have a I don't have a toilet in my house. I've got two toilets in my house. One is not for me and one is not for Rob. Toilets, by all means, please use them. And we we have the sign that says if you you know, if you sprinkle while you tinkle, be it be a deer and wipe the smear, kind of you know, that's that cleaning. And and I get like there's cost implications to that for organizations, for example. They can't just suddenly, you know, come up with another toilet. I get it. So you can't then say that they're not allowed to use the toilets that they feel comfortable in, because if you can't provide an alternative, you are discriminated against them. And I need that to be really clear because it's been misunderstood massively. Organisations are going out there saying you legally cannot use the female or male toilets depending on what you identify as. That is not the case, it is not true. Do not misunderstand or misinterpret this law. As much as I disagree with the law, there are ways around this law that people can still take you to court. So do not get caught out being that much of a bigamist and that much of a just ridiculous. I'm so wound up about this subject. I'm so wound up. Oh my god, I am. I'm not even gonna apologize. I am. I literally I was messaging one of my friends who was who's non-binary. Um, and actually, that I was one of the first person that they came out to um as non-binary, and they just introduced themselves by their non-gender conforming name. Um, their pronouns are they them, and they were quite taken aback by the fact that I just it was just water off a duck's back. I was like, okay, that's who you are, like not a problem. Like, crack on. But I've been messaging them about this because you know, as a non-binary person, a very good friend of mine. And they turned around and they said, I now make plans of the fact that I will only be somewhere for as long as I don't need to use the toilet, so I'm not questioned. Like they are they are now changing how they are able to go out and experience the world, and then we're gonna get people who have got agrophobia, xenophobia. It's going to breed this fear of others, the fear of the outside. They're second-class citizens, their safety and their mental health isn't as important as cisgender people. No, didn't we know? I it just, you know, the fact that they said, I now plan, like I don't go out for longer than an hour or you know, an hour or two because I don't want to run the risk of having to use the toilet. Like, how are we living in a world of the 21st century where we have people afraid to use the toilet? Do you know what though? And somebody said it on your post, and this is my real fear, and this is kind of where the handmaid's tale comes in a little bit. And it may, you know, five years ago it may have seemed like a bit of a conspiracy theory, but I actually think it's less of a conspiracy theory and more of a warning now, because we're certainly seeing it in America. You know, in the 80s, gay people would fear being seen out publicly as gay, they had to hide themselves, and this is exactly the cycle is continuing. Now we've moved on from gay, we're going to transgender, and we're going to um gender conforming uh minds blank anyway, you know what I mean. Um the problem is I can see it going right back, and suddenly we're gonna go back to where we were in the 80s and be off before the 80s, where you, you know, are gay rights gonna be questioned here? Are laws going to be changed around this? I can see it happening because I can't understand a government that would approve where society's moved on so much, they'd approve a law that is so backwards. And if they can do that, they can start to go backwards with a lot of other laws as well. So suddenly we might see that gay marriage is suddenly illegal again. Um, people can't be gay, it's not natural. They need a lobotomy, they need religious education. We can go back into that very easily. We need to be very easy to do. The fact that we're we're getting rid of the the caps that that oh my god, words. Did you see that poke that thing? No. So King Charles has um abolished any kind of what do they call them? Oh my god, I got so excited and the words. You really need to find the words, whatever you're trying to say. Um, yeah, he's basically told Parliament that they cannot introduce um flip, flippin' eck, flippin' eck. If somebody if somebody else could find the words before I King Charles he googles it. Yeah. Um what is it called? It's a bit like the conversion. Conversion therapy. I did see this and it's like he's basically told parliament that they cannot introduce um stuff that will inf enforce converting, you know, um trans people to being the the the cis gender and oh my god, what what was it? What the oh do you know what okay King Charles has publicly announced the UK government's plans to introduce a draft bill to ban abusive conversion practices in the state opening of parliament? He delivered a speech stating his ministers will bring forward legislations aimed at protecting LGBTQ plus individuals from these harmful practic practices. That's that's the story I was trying to find, but I got so excited by the fact that did you see it that my words just went clean out of the way. Good, good. Even the king stands by this. And and remember, by the way, that the king um runs the Prince's Trust or did run the Prince's Trust. And I mean, this is quite an emotive subject for you because obviously you're scouts, but girl guides went the complete opposite way, and there was a lot of controversy around Girl Guides, and there was another organization, I can't remember who it was, after the Supreme Court ruling went out with a statement and said that they it was, yeah, the WI. Now, again, let's fact-check that because a lot of people went out um kind of really in agreement, and then there was the people that really disagreed. Now, whilst I can fundamentally disagree with their decision, they had this really sad society that we have to go this way. They had no choice but to put that statement out because they were threatened with so many court cases, so many people suing them, it would have made them bankrupt. They would no longer exist. They would so we would lose go guys in the WI, which are organizations that have benefited billions of people, and they would literally go under because of the threat. They did not go out with these statements because they agreed with it, they went out with these statements because they had no choice. So do not misinterpret other people's ways of doing things. If you're going to go against this topic, fact-check and educate yourself first. I was so sad for guiding that they had to. But then I do know a leader of the Girl Guys who fundamentally agrees with that decision. So it's you know, it's yeah, that's anyway. That's not why they went out with it. They went out with it because they had no choice. But going, sorry, just going back to what we were saying about kind of where we're going, I do somebody commented on your post, and I fear, I fear for my daughter's futures because I feel like this is a real step in the direction to controlling our bodies because that's what we're doing. Because you are gonna have people who naturally want to transition to another gender who are going to not do it now because of these legislations that are in place, and legislations, by the way, aren't law, just putting that out there. They're guidance. Um, but they're not gonna do it, so they have to live in this body that makes them feel so ashamed and so uncomfortable and so devastated because they're and that is a form of control. We're gonna be in more of a mental health crisis than we already are in. Yeah, and then when do we stop? Where do we stop? Because then are we gonna tackle cis women's bodies and we're gonna go where America is gone and we're gonna start banning things like abortion, and we are going to. I mean, Farage has already gone out and basically, you know, said that there's too many, there's too many laws against real sexual predators out there. I'm just gonna put that very loosely because you know, fact-checking needs to be done on that too. Um, we know that these kind of things are already in the cycle. If you look at the reform manifesto, for example, it reads for some pretty, and there's a lot of reform voters out there that haven't actually gone and read the manifesto. And if you are a woman, a black person, Asian person, Chinese person, disabled person, neurodivergent person, or anybody who is not a traditional white male or female, then you really need to go and read that manifesto before you go and vote for reform. Because trust me, if they get in, you're not going to be particularly happy. Yeah, I'm laughing because it's it's a fear response. It is and that's the handmaid's tale in action. So go watch the handmaid's tale flick because we are seeing it, maybe extreme, but actually it happened in America, and America right now is extreme. And for Raj, it's best mates with that extreme American leader, um, and agrees fundamentally with what he's doing. So it's not that I'm really told that my pregnancy was likely to be ectopic and probably kill me within the next hour. I had that moment of thinking of going, it's my baby or my life, yeah, and sorry, as much as I was gonna love that unborn fetus, yeah, and and that child, no, yeah, like but you know, there are there are certain places in America, and thankfully it wasn't, obviously, you know, and stuff here, and and you know, um, but yeah, and there are some places in America where you're not allowing women to make that choice to that's just that's just another reference. And and that is relevant because there have been multiple cases where women have died or have come close to dying because they were not allowed to make that choice. My daughter, and this is this, and I'm gonna say this, and it's uh I probably shouldn't, but my youngest daughter, this is the influence of things like TikTok. She sat in the car the other day and she said, and this is going really deep now, but it's all relevant, it's all on the same topic. And she said to me, Mom, abortion is murder. And I literally slammed on the brakes and I stopped the car and I said, Run that by me again, darling. She doesn't say our viewers can't see how much my eyebrows have just shot up my hairline. And I said, run that by me again, darling. Hairline. Sorry, carry on with the story. So yeah, I said, run that by me again, darling, after I'd slammed my brakes on and stopped the car. And she went, abortion is murder. And I said, Okay, so what makes you think that, my love? Because she's 11, so I'm aware that she's, you know, I'm now very aware of what she's watching on social media, and that has stopped. I will put that out. Um and she said, Well, it is, it's killing a baby. And I said, Let me just fact-check you. I said, abortions are in place to protect women, protect women's bodies. I said, somebody might be sexually assaulted, somebody might be very ill and cannot go through the pregnancy. Some people just need that choice, darling. And I said, When you have an abortion, now I'm not talking about abortions six months on. I'm talking about abortions at normal stages. I said, that's not a baby, that is cells. It is not formed. There is no brain, there is no arms and legs, there is no body, there's not a baby. There is nothing. I said, they don't, there is no nothing to function at all. I said, so when women go through that, darling, they are not murdering a baby, they are protecting themselves. And there's a lot more conversation around it. And then she got really aggro. So fine, fine, fine. And I said, Why are you getting upset? I'm just giving you the facts. You are entitled to your opinion if that's what you want to think, but I'm just gonna give you the facts. And she went, Well, I didn't know what it meant, did I? And there it is. Yeah, she'd heard a statement, had no idea what it meant. She'd heard somebody say you are killing a baby, yeah, and that's what she hacked on to. That is social media today, that is what we are listening to, and our kids are listening to. My kids aren't listening to that crap anymore, let me tell you. But I got so strict on social media. So, but this is why, you know, I mean, we wanted to talk about this today in this episode because you know, it matters so much to us, and we obviously have quite some strong feelings about it. But um, this is why I went out on social media. So, you know, a lot of people, you know, will question about why are we doing a podcast about this topic when it doesn't have relevance to business? Well, actually, it does because sharing your values on social media, you know, standing up to these things and and coming from a place of curiosity, the the fact-checking that we've already talked about is so so important when you are a business owner. Because actually, I mean, I've noticed that that from that post that I put out, my followers have dropped. Yeah. But I'm okay with that. Because if people don't agree with me, I don't want to work with them. I don't I don't want to work with somebody who does not share my values, who does not share my opinion on the world. Like, yes, we can have a difference of opinion, but if you're going to approach it from hate, like no, yeah, this so it is relevant to businesses. And it's okay if we still follow and follow us from this as well. You know, we said at the beginning we haven't got that many followers anyway. So if you don't follow us anymore, that's fine. But it's interesting because I put um a colleague of mine put a post out who is a transgender male identifying as non-binary, and they put out um, I say transgender male because that's what they transitioned to, but they are they, they are a non-binary. They put out a post saying that I don't have the spoons or the headspace to deal with this, but I need I need to say how I feel. So just stand up and be an ally. That's all the post said at that moment. They will come out with a bigger post later. So I shared it and I just said, I'm, you know, I'm in the same place. I don't have the spoons, I don't have the head. So I was at a festival when it all kicked off. So I didn't have the headspace to deal with it or write a meaningful post. So I just put, I just want you to know I stand with you. I stood with you yesterday, I stand with you today, I will stand with you tomorrow. And then somebody I know quite well from my past business world commented, I hope you know the, I hope you recognize the elephant in the room. And I thought, I don't get it. I don't get what that comment is. I don't, and I thought I'm at a festival, I'm not going into a fight. So I thought I'm gonna delete the post because I'm gonna go out with a much better post. I'm gonna go out with something that I've really thought about and understood. But before I did it, I said to Paul, my husband, you watch how many followers I lose by just standing back as a standing up as an ally. And he said, Really? And I said, I am going to lose hundreds and hundreds of followers just by being an ally, and I don't care. Because if you can't, if you come at me with a comment that you've been at today, if somebody or yesterday, if somebody comes at me with that kind of comment, I don't want you anywhere near my feed, my life, my follow-up. I have a lovely message this morning from one of my friends, and I've I've categorically said I will not out them. Um, but they've they've sent me a message saying, Thank you so much for your post, because now they feel like they can talk to me because their child is trans, their adult child um is trans, um, who moved away from our local area um because they weren't sure that they would be accepted in the local area, but because they have seen my post saying the fact that I'm an advocate for trans rights, yeah, my friend now feels that they can talk to me about their transgender child because while they didn't think that I would be absolutely against it, they weren't a hundred percent sure that I would be okay with it. Yeah, and now actually I have a closer friendship with that person because I put that value down. It's just being an ally. And and I just want to be clear about one thing, okay. It is okay to have a difference in opinion. Is it okay if you're listening to this and you disagree and you don't have the same views, you don't feel as passionate, or you feel passionately about it the other way, that's okay. We're all, you know, that's what makes the world go round differences of opinions. Not everybody has to agree with this, whether we think it's right or wrong. However, what I would say is if you are going to have the opposite opinion, because you are talking about two intelligent women who have done their research, educated themselves, understood statistics, laws, everything that comes with this, then come at us from an educated perspective or come at us with curiosity. Neither of us would worry about being questioned on it. If somebody was genuinely questioning them, but I don't understand this because we can have an adult conversation, and that's okay. We don't inflict, well, I suppose we are inflicting our views on people today, but it's because it's me and you, and we can have a conversation about it. But if you want to disagree, then disagree with us, but do it educationally, do it with curiosity, don't come at us with oh, but you know, we're not safe as women, they're taking away our rights. No one is taking away cis women's rights. Nobody is taking away the government, are beginning to take away cis women's rights, not trans community. That's what you need to be worried about. I was gonna say the following thing that I'm about to say is possibly a little bit vulgar, but it really does work is the fact that you know having opinions is a lot like having a penis. It's okay to have one, it's okay to be proud to have one, but don't aggressively get it out and shove it down people's throats. Like that's not okay. Oh my god, I can't believe you just said that. But actually, that's exactly what we're doing. In fairness, just to balance it. We are actually shoving our opinions down people's throats right now, but you know, but we are coming from an educated place, we're coming from a place where I've admitted that I didn't understand certain things, you know, earlier on. And I've educated myself, I've gone and found out the facts around it and the details around it, gone and had conversations with people to change my opinion. I honestly did not understand different genders, I didn't understand it. I was like, but we're male or female, you're born one or you're born the other, or not even so much that because I never disagreed with chance rights, but I couldn't understand it. I was like, how can you and my opinion of non binary was you can't be female one day and male the next. And it's like it's not about that at all. It's nothing like that. But that is kind of where I was. So I educated myself. I went and talked to people, I looked up the facts, I looked, I did research. Research. So that's all we need people to do. When it comes to non-binary and that kind of um really interesting stuff in microbiology if you have a if there is there is real scientific evidence. There is and that fascinated me. I went down a whole loophole with that. So how easy it is for one cell to jump over to the other, and that's it. And it's like there is actual scientific evidence to this. And there is actually, you know, isn't um, I mean, I I I've got the quote from Jurassic Park, so I'm not even going to claim the fact that I've done the full research on it, but there are some frogs that will change gender if they're in a completely same-sex group, they will be able to change their body to change gender. So, you know, the the saying it's not natural, it's like, well, it literally happens in the animal kingdom without surgery. So, you know. And it is natural because it happens while we're growing in the womb. It does. There is a scientific basis for this, but nobody wants to hear that, and that makes me really sad. We just jump. There is when I teach about prejudice, prejudice is preconceived ideas based on little or no fact, and we are seeing that all around us. We are seeing people jump on social media posts, jump on things that you know, videos that we're seeing on TikTok, and we're not actually fact-checking things. Reform, nobody's actually fact-checking reform. You know, it's could I could I just add on that one? I think so. There are some people in reform who weren't fact-checking. So, um, where my mum lives, um, reform didn't win the majority vote of the council in the May elections, but got a lot, awful lot of seats on the council. Um, and half of them have now quit because they didn't realise it was a voluntary role, it was unpaid. They thought they were becoming MPs and they were going to be paid for it. So they've now all quit. So even a reform were fact-checking actually what they were going up for. Sorry, that just really made me giggle. But that's you know, but you know, we've got a big immigration problem. We haven't got an immigration problem. If you actually check it, we will see that immigration is massively down. And you know, the the preconception of what an illegal immigrant is. I've had this argument with my stepson. It's really funny to put him in his place because I was like, what is an illegal immigrant? Well, when they get off the boat, no, that's an asylum seeker. What's an illegal immigrant? Well, when they're coming on the boat, no, that's an asylum seeker. What's an illegal immigrant? Can't tell me. Can't tell me what an actual illegal immigrant is. Um, go and fact-check people because they're not the ones coming on the boats. The boats are asylum seekers. Um, just putting that in there. You know, it's all about fact-checking, isn't it? Being curious, actually not being prejudiced, not having preconceived ideas based on little or no fact. Don't just jump on a bandwagon. Go and actually fact-check for yourself. Go and have a look at statistics. We said before this call, didn't we, that you know, I looked up about immigration, how many illegal immigrants are actually in prison? 12% of the UK population. So 88% of you know, British born people in the prisons, but we don't look at those. Like we don't look at the amount of sexual assault that happens from the male community and female community, not the transgender. If we actually look at the statistics around that, it is so minute, it's unreal compared to cis male and female abuse. Well, they always go back to the the, you know, when you are seeing these sort of, you know, these horrific kind of things that are presented, and they are always present on social media, and I totally get it. You know, I sit in the world of social media. Um, you know, I get why people turn around to me and say the fact that they hate it and they don't want to be on it and stuff like that. I don't know. I always go back to the Frankie Boyle quote of that he he said, I can't I forget what the news story was, and he's like, it's almost like the government have just got a big jangly set of keys and going, look at the shiny, shiny. Pay no attention to what the other hand is doing. Look at the shiny shiny. Now, obviously, our listeners can't see the fact that I I'm in jangling my imaginary keys. I don't have anything that I can jangle so that you can hear it, but yeah, um, yeah, it's it's always, you know, pay attention to what the other hand is doing. Yeah, absolutely. It's like that just reminds me, and I use this a lot in the class about the BAFTAs, what happened at the BAFTAs. This, although we're going off topic, it's kind of all on the same theme, really. Um, so you know what happened at the BAFTAs, yeah, with John Davidson. So I talk about that as a case study in the class around intent versus impact a lot. And you know, I always say, not to bring my political views in, but if a skeptical person was looking at that, they would think that um, you know, bearing in mind the BBC's part that was played in that, nobody was talking about Prince Andrew that week, or nobody was talking about the Epstein Files that week. We were all just talking about what happened at the BAFTAs. It's like if anybody actually looked, what was really going on in the world during that week, you might have a little bit of a sceptical mind about what was being fed to the public that week, deliberately fed, because miraculously the BBC failed to edit that word out, but they didn't, but they did manage to edit out Free Palestine that happened two hours earlier. Um, now if you can pick up on free Palestine, you can certainly pick up on a really racially discriminatory word. Um, so you know you can be skeptical, so don't believe everything you're seeing or what's being fed to us, because there are forces at play that are feeding us what we want to know. Like how dangerous it is for a woman to be in a toilet with a transgender woman, how utterly dangerous that would be to be in a toilet with somebody who just wants to live their life as a woman. That was what Jet said to me. They said I just want to pee in peace. And why is that so difficult for people to allow me to do? Uh, I think we have exhausted this subject. Talked about it, but yeah, I would I would highly recommend to you know our listeners, you know, to share their values, to educate themselves if they are if anything that we've raised today, um they've kind of gone, oh, I didn't know that. I want to know more about that, you know, explore it. Come and come and talk to us on our uh Facebook, our Instagram, or in our Facebook group. Yeah, and feel free to disagree, but come at it from an educated viewpoint. Don't come at us with we just yeah, we will respond with curiosity and go, okay, well, you know, it's you know, if you if you've got a fact that we don't yet know, you know, we we will respond with oh, I didn't know that, you know, where where is that from? And and we will respond with curiosity. What I will say is please don't come at us with a visual that says these are the trans women who have sexually assaulted women in the UK with like 15 people on it, when we can come back at you with the thousands and thousands and thousands of cis men and women who are sexually assaulted in the UK. Um, and when you actually put it in proportion, it's about one percent, if that. I don't even think it hits one percent. Um, so don't come at us with that, come at us with real facts, otherwise, we're just not gonna take you seriously. And if you've if we've annoyed you and triggered you and you don't want to follow us anymore, then we can't apologise because it's no apologies on here. But it was nice seeing you, and um, thanks very much for listening this far. Um, and hope to see you again in the future. And those who are still with us, thanks for being an ally. Yes, I think those are our wild words of wisdom. We didn't say it was our wild words of wisdom, but I think they're definitely up there. Uh yeah, I've only had one coffee. There's no way that sentence is coming out of my mouth today. But yeah, we'll take it. You definitely woke up during this episode, so it's time. I did. And funnily enough, my speech came back. We got words. So she started with an apology and she ended with, we're not gonna apologize because this is the podcast where we don't apologize. Yeah, absolutely. I'm not gonna apologize for this one. It's gonna stir up some emotions. Sorry, not sorry. No, it's it's be an ally, just be an ally, people, just be an ally. Just be kind of saying we're we're all human beings, we're part of the human race. Why are we why we're not racing against each other? Yeah, I have got a wild words of wisdom actually. You know, the hashtag be kind is so overused, it's unreal. Don't use it unless you actually live your life by that, unless you really want to be kind. Don't use it for the sake of using it. Just hashtag be kind means something, so use it as it's meant. Love you all. I will see you next week. Bye.